Sunday, September 11, 2016

Re: IRC SIG needs external oversight


> On Sat, 10 Sep 2016 13:33:07 -0000
> Ben (aka kk4ewt, Southern_Gentlem) is an op in #fedora-meeting and
> baned him with this before the ban.
> Jul 15 20:13:30 <kk4ewt> gnokii, when you get your network fixed let
> me know

Maybe it's a cultural thing on my part, but that reads as a bit passive-aggressive to me.

The only way he could "fix" his network would be to move to another country. Is that a reasonable option? Being in a country where reliable internet is affordable and easy (for the most part) to come by is certainly a position of privilege so I understand not grokking that right away, but if Fedora is to be inclusive and diverse, we should probably be more understanding of these types of situations. If it had been a less-established contributor, they may have felt pretty unwelcome and perhaps not came back. :-/

> The ban in #fedora-meeting was then removed:
> Jul 16 12:08:20 * kk4ewt removes ban on $a:gnokii
> I don't see any meeting he missed in that less than 24 hour period.
> (July 15th was a friday and the 16th was saturday).

The meeting in question was on a Tues or Wed in August IIRC. It may not have been in a -meeting channel, it could have been in -websites or -apps; it was regarding the website. I thought it was in -meeting-* tho.

> Sure, but if they are:
> a) not around
> b) bouncing in and out of channel rapidly
> it also makes meetings not so great for the people who are there.

Sure, if you have a client that has joins/parts turned on and very visible, I could see that being annoying (then again, we have a bot on in most of our channels that by default spews out fedmsg datadumps en masse in the non-meeting channels, and those aren't join/part msgs they are real messages, so what's worse?)

gnokii has been in Cambodia for probably a year now, maybe longer? So it's not like this was a sudden issue necessitating an instant ban to deal with. It's not too hard to get someone's email address using .fasinfo, and sending them a politely-worded message explaining the situation.

But that didn't happen, as I understand it.

To ban someone with a message like, "when you get your network fixed let me know" just doesn't sound like the kind of cool-headed, rational, and confrontation-avoiding strategy I'd prefer to see from someone wielding op status.

> But perhaps we should ignore this if causes too much pain for the
> people bouncing. This case really doesn't seem to happen that often.
> In a rational world people would just talk and sort this out. ;(

Yeh, if something someone is doing bothers you, it makes sense to talk to them, instead of complaining behind their back.

> The problem here is that some teams may have no care or knowledge of
> irc stuff and in fact ops are used so rarely it largely doesn't matter.
> In these cases I think the minimal set of admin folks (myself, spot,
> etc) should be able to handle things.
> Sure I guess... but again infrastructure folks are already around most
> of the time so we are likely to be able to react faster than a specific
> group that may not have worldwide coverage.

If infrastructure is in charge that's way preferable.

> ask and irc are very different worlds and I don't know if there's
> really much overlap between them. Someone who can moderate a post
> slowly and deliberately might not be best to react to a spammer or
> realtime issue on irc.

To be fair, though, I do think reading through some of the controversial things that have popped up over the years, that maybe slower reactions and more deliberation before typing could have avoided a lot of those situations and a lot of the misunderstandings that led to them escalating.

> Apples and oranges I think...

I'm not convinced. ask has a lot more affordances, sure, but I think as say facebook when someone makes a post about the NRA or lkml or whatever could all exemplify, people lose their cool in computer mediated communication forms that are less 'live' than IRC.

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